ukraine misc

Tragedy in the city Snezhnoye


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Military report of Novorossia, Jul 15


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South Front Morning News, Jul 15


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South Front Evening News, Jul 14


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Strelkov with subtitles, Jul 13


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Transcript (Glev Bazov):

The militia is engaged in constant uninterrupted fighting. At this time, very heavy battles are ongoing near Lugansk. There the enemy has concentrated enormous overwhelming forces. According to our estimates, over 70 tanks are operating against us, or, rather, against our comrades in Lugansk, in that region. At this time, we are sending there whatever ammunitions and reinforcements we can. However, the ratio of forces is simply disheartening, because, having put mercenaries behind steering wheels of tanks, the Ukrainian side is seeking to have the outcome of the war decided by cutting us off from Russia. For our part, we try to help by attacking the enemy on various fronts. Thus, for instance, last night, in the area north of Karlovka, our reconnaissance team attacked a battery of Grad systems. One vehicle – installation – was destroyed, and one was damaged. We will, of course, continue our attacks. However, it must be understood that the Militia is unable to cardinally break the flow of this war, particularly because the enemy is indeed being supplied to the highest degree. We have information that four anti-tank Apache helicopters have been transferred into Ukraine, which they are contemplating on using not even against us, but against Russia, if it decides to help us in a more active manner. (Question: Is this a provocation or is it an entirely purposeful measure?) After witnessing the use of chemical weapons in Semyonovka, I no longer doubt that anything could happen. Pretty much everything is being tried to pull Russia into this war. Either that, or to obtain confirmation that Russia will not enter this war and will not defend its brothers here, in Ukraine. They have effectively lost sight of the shores, if I may use this expression. They have simply lost all measure, lost touch with reality. They are no longer ashamed of anything. They think they are entitled to do anything they want, to use whatever weapons they want in battle, and to shell … They would even shell Moscow, given the chance. There is no honour, no conscience, there is no understanding, none at all.

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Donetsk airport today: interview of militiaman callsign “Abkhazian”


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Armored columns militias, today entered to Donetsk. Video shot in Makeyevka


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In Lugansk lit up another SAU “Carnation” militias.


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Armored columns militias on the way in Donetsk


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Today a junta SU-25 fired rockets into the emergency services depot in Loskutivka (LNR) and destroyed several emergency services vehicles.


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In Ternopil, military barracks was crowded with mothers of so-called Ukrainian “volunteers”. “Recruits” were sitting in the bus before being sent to the Eastern front.


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Ukrainian air force Bell UH-1 “Hueys” over Dnepropetrovsk:


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A house was destroyed as a result of shelling by the junta in Lugansk:


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Video effects morning airstrike junta on Schastye. As of 17:00 the number of civilians killed in the air strike Ukrainian aviation on Schastye reached 11 people, another 8 were injured:


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At least 8 armoured vehicles passed through Yenakiyevo today in the direction in Donetsk:


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Prisoner interrogation of the Punisher of the battalion “Donetsk”, seized by a group of Beszler:


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Report on the situation in Lugansk on 11 PM Russian news programme Yola:


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Punitive militia column destroyed at Roskoshnoye, Jul 14:


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The results of air raid on Shastye at 6:30 am, Jul 15:


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In Severodonetsk Executive summary of the Northern group of forces: Chief of staff of the army group Severodonetsk-Lisichansk-Stakhanov said that the whole agglomeration is still under the control of anti-fascists, and reason to worry about. The situation difficult. After delivery Seversk punitive almost came close to the positions of militia on the part of Lisichansk. The city of Lisichansk and Severodonetsk remain the only settlements in the new Russia, on the left Bank of the Donets river, which is not taken by the Ukrainian occupants. In Severodonetsk they may not enter, therefore, begin to apply the tactics that have been tested in the siege of Slavyansk. Surround the town checkpoints. Militiamen take counter-measures, dig up the forest road, make their barrier. Ukrainian army to bombard the city of mortars and bombs with the help of aviation peace objects. In agglomeration comes regular humanitarian aid from Russia, food and medicines, militia helps to evacuate citizens. Around the Severodonetsk deployed 125 brigade from Zhitomir, Kirovograd spetsnaz, airborne, separate mortar regiment of the airborne troops, 11 Rota and 4th battalion, the so-called nazvanii, (the latter are based in the Varvarivka), one tank battalion, against the Lisichansk exposed part 4 mechanized brigade.


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First major defeat of the Kyiv punishers
Max, Voice of Sevastopol, Jul 15 2014

After capturing left by militia Slavyansk-Kramatorsk district, rearrangement released capabilities and further promotion directly to the Donetsk agglomeration Kiev troops began a military operation scale with decisive forces and means. They pursued the following goals:

  • to ensure the return of control over the border with the Russian Federation;
  • to break the transport connection between the Donetsk and Lugansk;
  • to make deep salients directly into the agglomeration;
  • to ensure the unblocking held since the beginning of hostilities airfields of Lugansk and Donetsk.

The operation was characterized by a massive air and artillery strikes (including large-caliber artillery and the MRLS) directly on residential areas, were first noted the actions of large masses of tanks (up to 90 units in the area of Luhansk) and armored vehicles. Couldn’t achieve decisive success Jul 9-11, Kiev was forced to quit in the clashes of all available reserves. Moreover, successful offensive militia provided capture the vast majority airport Lugansk, and trying to tread along the border with the Russian Federation the southern grouping of the enemy was stopped in the area Saur-Mogila, came under competently organized shelling militia, and having suffered heavy losses, practically has completely lost the combat capability. Using all available reserves, and without succeeding in any of the directions, Kiev in fact suffered the first serious defeat. Its inevitable consequence will be an increase in the activity of the actions of militia and its gradual transition to action offensive along with increasing impacts raid groups on communications of the enemy. It should also be expected that not having an objective opportunities to continue offensive operations, Kiev will be forced to go to a ceasefire and negotiations justified in the eyes of pro-Ukrainian-minded part of the population defeat “humanitarian purposes” and “international opinion.”

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koval1
koval2

Translated from Russian (on LifeNews) by Gleb Bazov

To the President of Ukraine, P.A. Poroshenko

Dear Pyotr Alekseevich!

Pursuant to your order, I am hereby submitting proposals with respect to organizing our dealings with the refugees from the area where the Anti-Terrorist Operation [“ATO”] is being conducted. Accordingly, in order to meet the challenges put before the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence of mobilizing and rotating servicemen in the area of the ATO, as well as enhancing the effectiveness of filtration measures, I consider it necessary to introduce the following refugee categories:

Category “A”—women and children: to be assigned into the care of educational and training establishments (incl. boarding schools/orphanages)

Category “B”—invalids and pensioners: to be assigned into the care of medical and social institutions (incl. group homes for the relevant categories)

Category “C”—men aged between 18 (military recruitment age) and 65 (retirement age): this stream should further be split into two categories:

Group “C1”—aged between 18 (earliest military recruitment age) and 50 (end of military recruitment age); and,

Group “C2”—aged between 50 (end of military recruitment age) and 65 (those who have achieved retirement age).

Those in Group “C1” should be made subject to MANDATORY and full mobilization into the Ukrainian Armed Forces (or into other relevant units) for participation in the ATO, with a term of, for example, two months. If men who fall into the specified age category have health-related issues, but do not fall into the invalid category, they should be transferred into Group “C2”.

Those in Group “C2” should be made subject to MANDATORY mobilization into reserve units (or, for example, into units tasked with maintaining control over the territories already cleared of terrorists in the court of the ATO) for a period of, for example, one month.

Those in Groups “C1” and “C2” ought to be granted refugee status and the appropriate social guarantees only after demobilization from the Ukrainian Armed Forces. With respect to persons avoiding mobilization, the Ukrainian Security Service (“SBU”) should exercise thorough filtering measures. In cases of reasonable grounds, measures within the existing criminal legislation [should be] applied.

I believe that this type of approach would:

a) meet the challenge of rotation in the units involved in the ATO;

b) reduce the wave of refugees, which otherwise would have to be provided with means of livelihood;

c) minimize the threat of internal conflict, in which the residents of the Central-Western, Northern and Southern regions would demand an answer to the fair question: “Why is it that men from their regions have to go defend the East of Ukraine, risking their health and their lives, while healthy men from the East run into the ranks of refugees?”;

d) minimize the possible abuse of refugee status among certain categories of the population;

e) allow us to understand the proportion of pro-Ukrainian population in the East without resorting to sociological studies and surveys.

The position of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence in this regard has been coordinated with the staff of the Prime Minister of Ukraine and the Ukrainian Security Service.

With respect,

Colonel General M.V. Koval
The Acting Minister of Defence of Ukraine

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14 Comments

  1. RRA
    Posted July 15, 2014 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    “Strelkov with subtitles, Jul 13”

    Didnt get any subtitles when i tried to watch the video. (And i dont understand russian;) (and yandex doesnt translate audio yet;)

  2. niqnaq
    Posted July 15, 2014 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Try clicking the captions box. But I get them by default. I dunno why.

  3. Crazy Ivan Report
    Posted July 15, 2014 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Homework for morning. 🙂

    To remove Strelkov and Putin …
    http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/www.novorosinform.org/articles/id/144

    Al-Murid: Junta prepares to use WMD under Lugansk
    http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/www.novorosinform.org/news/id/3094

    Known analyst Anatoly Nesmiyan (al-Murid) reported that the withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from the previously occupied positions in the area of Lugansk may be associated with the decision on the use of weapons,by characteristics close to weapons of mass destruction.

    Shooters: a Huge column of Ukrainian troops try to jump out of the bag
    http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/www.novorosinform.org/news/id/3086

    Last sentence: Poorly. But I hope to come not all have time
    you need to add: But I hope not all will have the time to escape.

    Do remember (correct vs bad translations):
    NatGuard, NatzGuard, punitive = Germans
    cauldron = bag, boiler
    column = pillar
    Strelkov = Shooters, Strelkova

    Pages are auto translated at random, total mish-mash in language.

  4. Crazy Ivan Report
    Posted July 16, 2014 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    Good news from Donbas
    http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/politikus.ru/events/24485-horoshie-novosti-s-donbassa.html

    Be aware of Yandex limits!

    When used in hyperlinks (Internet address) it cuts out a lot of text fragments. The example is above.

    When used with translate.yandex.ru it translate everything. Above text is shortened, the full version:

    From reliable sources in DND.

    1. The troops of the junta today rolled from Izvarino and Krasnodon (earlier received information that the enemy departs from Alexandrovka and Shchastye (Happiness)), and not being able to solve the main task for the blockade of the former state border of Ukraine with Russia. Suffering heavy losses and having problems with supply, on the 15th day of the junta troops retreated to 30-40 km from Izvarino, South which takes a kind of “road of life”. Thus, coupled with increasing defeat South punitive groups and the failure to release the airport Lugansk militia LNR won strategic defensive operation lasted more than two weeks, and the junta has suffered the largest loss since the war began. In fact, throw mechanized forces to rescue the airport was a gamble, which tried to break the course unsuccessfully folding operations. To resume offensive operations junta urgently needed operational pause, as the setting for her continues to be complicated, so it’s possible in the near future requests an armistice, which of course will be rejected by the militia.

    2. Continued the story with Khodakovskiy. Earlier, he was deprived of the direct command of the battalion “East” (which was transformed into the team, so now it should be called the brigade “East”) promptly subordinated to Strelkov and its headquarters based on the Council of Commanders. Over Hodakovskiy, who was Minister of state security DND, Lieutenant General Antufeyev (Антюфеев) known as “Bloody Gebni” formed a protection, he bitterly mopping up the consequences of the work involved in trying to pass Donetsk. With Hodakovskiy continued to stand in order to prevent fermentation in parts and especially fighting in Donetsk. A few days ago Hodakovskiy was explicitly asked to decide with whom he is with Akhmetov or DND. As to agree on good apparently failed, according to the source, Khodakovsky today dashed off a paper about the rejection of all posts in the power block DND, which is easy on the table in political leadership DND. Giving it’s not yet clear, but it is likely in the near future Khodakovsky can leave the “iron ring” of military-political leaders DND, as well as former mayor of Donetsk Lukyanchenko cropped up from the clique and escaped to Kiev.

    UPD: Shooters already confirmed the resignation of Comments from the post of Minister of state security DND, so the source once again proved its high degree of awareness.

    Strelkov:
    Khodakovsky really resigned from the post of Minister. But the “East” he is still commander and no it is not going to withdraw.

    Thus khodakovskiy only field commander fell from political clip top DND. Another consequence of the withdrawal from Slavyansk.

    In the military leadership DND and LNR after the success of the last days reigns cautious optimism. So things are going.

    A lot of __very__ interesting info was lost via “yandex + link”. Check yourselves.

  5. Crazy Ivan Report
    Posted July 16, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    BTW.1. The constant shuffles in top echelon of DPR leaders is worrisome. I do not complain about removing and cutting old net of ties to Kiev but grass-root rebel leaders are being removed as well (e.g. Gubariev).

    BTW.2. Withdrawal of Ukrainian troops is highly suspicious, nothing to be stupidly happy with it. There more so Ukies freed zones for which they were fiercely fighting for yesterday. Any “truce” do not have to result in withdrawal from recently taken positions. Of course, one can always think of letting enemy inflate liberated zone to make their defending lines longer and thinner and thus easier to penetrate in oncoming assault but such scenario is not going on here.

  6. Crazy Ivan Report
    Posted July 16, 2014 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    “Dramatic” talks with the Ukrainian authorities. Kiev asks for help
    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvp.info%2F16052060%2Fdramatyczne-rozmowy-z-wladzami-ukrainy-kijow-prosi-o-pomoc&edit-text=

    From Polish TV servis:

    – My conversation with the President and Prime Minister Poroshenko Yatsenjouk were dramatic, because hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers killed, hundreds wounded. According to their words, millions of Ukrainians are kind of hostage separatists who seized military areas inhabited by them – said in Kiev Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski.

    That’s all for today. Stay tuned… 😉

  7. Crazy Ivan Report
    Posted July 16, 2014 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    The growing catastrophe
    http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1671158.html

    But Ukies managed to leave cauldron on the South, it seems. Too early to confirm.

  8. niqnaq
    Posted July 16, 2014 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    You’ve got a whole series of interesting points there, Premiswav. I have confirmed that the auto yandex does indeed shorten the story you mention, drastically. I cannot understand why or how it does that. I looked at both the Russian original and the autotranslation to see whether for instance the omitted portions were in a text box, or in quotation marks, or in any way differently formatted from the rest, which might explain it. But no. There is nothing visibly different about the omitted portions, whatsoever. So why on earth does it do that?

    As to the other points: I don’t see any indication that the Kremlin, or the Russian General Staff, or either of the main intelligence agencies, are trying to micro-manage the behaviour and policies of either the DPR or the LPR. I think Kurginyan’s media offensive was inspired by the big business faction in the Kremlin (which we can for convenience call the Surkov faction), and I think that this latter faction tends to have the controlling voice over all Putin’s final decisions. In other words, Putin is ultimately swayed not by considerations of Russian geopolitical realpolitik, but by business factors. Putin is under the delusion that global big business can and will find a peaceful place for a prosperous Russia in the NWO. He will not accept that big business and Usraeli geopolitik are actually one and the same thing. He thinks of the neocon and neolib hawks as something like his own hawks (who are probably in the Russian General Staff and the intelligence agencies). He knows he is able to dismiss all the agitation of his own hawks, and continue on his placatory, big-business-orientated way, and he imagines wrongly that something analogous is true in Usaia. It is not. Usraeli big business is inherently hawkish, and it will not be satisfied until Russia is comprehensively disarmed (specifically, of its nuclear and other WMD capabilities), and reduced to Third World status. There will be no ‘Second World’ tier in geopolitics anymore: there will be the ‘First World’ (the Five Eyes), and there will be ‘the rest’, all of which will have ‘Third World’ status, in terms of living standards, in terms of permitted cultural development, and in terms of military power. Either Putin does not believe the West is that brutal, or he doesn’t care.

    I should like to know more about this: “former mayor of Donetsk Lukyanchenko cropped up from the clique and escaped to Kiev.” How did this happen? How does anyone of any significance “escape to Kiev”? How, physically, did he do it? And why is he not immediately employed by Kiev in spreading hate propaganda against the Strelkov/Borodai regime? This regime, after all, has plainly imposed a martial law in the DPR which is just as summary as what the Kiev minister announced in his own plans: namely, everyone of physically capable age, whether male or female, is being conscripted for military service, which is no joke. Mothers are parking their small children with their grannies and embarking on punishing physical training, learning to run with backpacks on and work a variety of small arms. It cannot be otherwise, though we are not hearing about it. Instead, we are shown the occasional glamorous photo of small groups of young women in fatigues with rifles in their hands, mere photo ops. But imagine the reality. If after a week’s gruelling physical training they prove unfit for active service, they will still serve but in a static role, as a ‘Home Guard’ or blockfuhrer/fuhrerin, crouching on the roofs of their own homes with rifles, and patrolling their own immediate areas watching for saboteurs. None of this is at all funny; it means every adult is under military supervision. Think about it: Strelkov and Borodai have imposed what Lukyanshenko could very plausibly describe as ‘a reign of terror’ in Donetsk. In Lugansk, I can only assume Bolotov/Prokopyev (? – names of respective presidents & ministers of defense, corrected) is doing similarly. See the propaganda picture I am painting.

  9. RRA
    Posted July 16, 2014 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    “as summary as what the Kiev minister announced in his own plans: namely, everyone of physically capable age, whether male or female, is being conscripted for military service”

    Martial law does not automaticly translate into everyone beeing conscripted.
    BUT it can quickly turn into that in somewhat down the line.
    Not necesarly a bad thing, when one is figthing for indepence.

    Novorosdia is far from first country who have had to fight for indepence.
    Even usa was once a british colomy.
    The formula for fighting for indepence is almost always the same (with only very few exceptions).

    So far, with the very bad odds, novorossia has done good.
    I just hope the battle informations is somewhat accurate.
    And they need to continue to either capture weapons/ammo/artillery/tanks/etc or get it smuggled in from a third party.
    (Most countries who has got indepence, got “unofficial” help from abroad. Seldom direct help, but often more discreet help).

    Novorossia do have a chance. But the war can be for a while.
    For each miss from the coup gov, the selfdefense forces will get more organized and the internal affairs in kiev/west will get harder to contain.

    Problem gets if usa suddenly supply the coup gov with heavy weapons.
    (If they supply gradually with better and better weapons, then the east can somewhat adapt warfare and eventually steal weapons and technology).

    “Escaped to kiev”
    Think that is somewhat bad translation?
    In earlier article it was stated that the governor of kiev had to make a choice: either submit his lojalty to DPR or resign.
    If resigned he would get the option of either stay, travel to kiev, or go away to anywhere.

  10. Posted July 16, 2014 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    Indepence, i meant: independence.

    Kurginyan, is hardly a Putin friend.
    He has more ties with Kolomosky i think.

    Although Putin made a good sweeping/cleaning out of oligarchs when Putin first came to power some 12-16 years ago, he still needs to thread very carefull in russia.
    There are still alot of powerfull jewish oligarchs with connections also in russia.

    At the time beeing there is hope for novorossia, even without russia direct help. (Even if it often looks unbalanced powerwise).

  11. niqnaq
    Posted July 16, 2014 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    You’re right about ““former mayor of Donetsk Lukyanchenko escaped to Kiev.” Now I remember Strelkov saying that he could leave freely. But I didn’t say Kurginyan was a “Putin friend”. You are not showing any sign of having understood my argument. I am saying that Putin has to decide between the advices of the various different representatives of the different and more or less powerful Russian elites. I said Kurginyan represented one of those elites, the big business one. I called it the Surkov faction, for convenience. And in another comment I have explained at length a theory about what the relationship between this ‘Surkov faction’ in Moscow, and Kolomoisky, specifically, would probably be.

    You say “Novorossia is far from first country who have had to fight for independence. Even usa was once a british colony.” This is just a completely inapplicable analogy. There are no points of resemblance whatever. It is an emotive, propaganda comparison, intended to appeal to the supposed historical instincts of Usaians. You maintain that ‘Novorossiya’ has some plausible chance of ‘winning’, in the sense of becoming an internationally recognised statelet with its own foreign policies and its own defense. I am saying that we all need to pinch ourselves and wake up from this particular dream. No matter how many battles ‘Novorossiya’ wins on the ground, no matter how many ‘Punisher battalions’ it annihilates, it cannot win this war.

  12. Posted July 16, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    ” You are not showing any sign of having understood my argument. I am saying that Putin has to decide between the advices of the various different representatives of the different and more or less powerful Russian elites

    Actually i understood (when you wrote that in an article some days ago), and i still agree with that;)

    So for Putin, it may be ideal if Novorossia can win by itself (without russian direct involvement).

    From a longterm perspective, it would be dangerous for russia to not intervene. Usa/zionist has “tested” russia now, and according to zionists russia seems to be without any claws. (Russia failed so far).
    (Its a damn if russia intervene, but even more hell down the road if they dont).

  13. Posted July 16, 2014 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    “You say “Novorossia is far from first country who have had to fight for independence. Even usa was once a british colony.” This is just a completely inapplicable analogy. There are no points of resemblance whatever. It is an emotive, propaganda comparison, intended to appeal to the supposed historical instincts of Usaians.

    It not any propaganda! Its my own historic knowledge. And i just took usa as an example, since that would be easiest for people to compare.

    But you could add in any of over hundred nations, or hundredS of nations if you go through history.

    But many nations also evolve into bigger nations commonwealth (like german had many smaller kingdoms up untill 18-19th century (same with italy before/after the Roman Empire). Etc etc.

    But yes, there are also many who fails on first attempts.
    But almost all succeed after several attempts, it is impossible to enslave people for to long.
    Only way would be to completly obliviate a race/people. Very hard to do in total.

    But nevertheless the grief, the hearthace, the suffering will nevertheless be high.

    Independence sadly almost always come with a high price.
    And in eastern-ukraines instance, it was not even originally desired for own state. But the coup and bloodshed against the people eventually led to it.

    In my opinion, it would be best to divide ukraine into atleast 2 countries. The west and east is to far away mentally, culturally and ethnicsly. And historicly.

  14. Posted July 16, 2014 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    And btw in the usa independence war, the brits would have EASILY won over usa if it _just_ came to pure military might!.

    Thats kinda the point.
    It is seldome up to just military might.

    The “attacker” has to also deal with higher and higher tensions in home therf. Families kinda dont like having family members sent home in coffins in a war they didnt even want;)

    The pro:
    East-ukraine does not attack the west.
    (If they attacked the west, then the west-warmachine would get more popular vote for attacking the east).

    To wahe war is _VERY_ costly. It will impact everyones standard of living.
    People are more likely to revolt, on home turf in west-ukraine against warfare in the long run.

    Its like all “ideals”, a leader/gov can get people to work for free/go along, under the energetic uprising in the start.
    But eventually (1-2 yrs) people get tired and etc…

    So a war is often not about military might, but about ability to withstand, work undergroud and inflict pain to the enemy, and be strong in spirit untill eventually the tide turns.

    Just as the coup gov is eliminating its support in the eastern population by attacking civilians there, the western population will grow tired (unless the east actually attacks the west!).

    So yes, novorossia do have a good/ok chance.
    It all depends on their strategic and tactical moves.

    And it is a known fact that it takes a hell of alot of soldiers to hold onto a big city. Which the ukr coup gov do not have.

    —–
    One scenario is that eventually the nazi guards will get tired of beeing used as cannon fodder and return their attentions towards the oligarchs (which obviously hasnt changed. Which was an initial complain of the right sector and svoboda).

    The “best” sollution would be for right sector/svoboda to make a deal with the east ukraine, to divide country. to turn against their “puppet masters” (oligarchs like Kolomosky, who is ironacly a pure example of what the right wing people wholeheartly despises anyway).

    But oligarchs are rich, so initially it was “follow the money”.

    Another scenario could be oligarch rivalry which could turn nasty.

    Alot of players involved can shift the battlefield.

    The edge will however always be to defenders, because they fight for survival and has alot less to loose by fighting, and alot more to win by fighting.

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